A little over a year ago, I wondered just how much omega 3 we should be taking. Robb Wolf, a guru in Cordain-style paleo, was suggesting a seemingly very high level of 0.5-1.0 g/10lbs body weight/day (e.g., around 25g for a 250lb not-so-healthy person).
I was concerned because of the risks in high dosing omega 3s, including potential clotting problems, reduction in immunity, and increase in toxins (especially from lower priced, potentially lower quality supplements folks might take to get in such a high dose).
So I was really happy to see Chris Kresser discuss this issue on a recent podcast with Robb.
I thought the ten minutes of discussion was so interesting and important that it was worth the time to transcribe. The discussion begins around the 23:30 mark and continues for several minutes. I’ve edited it very lightly for ease of reading and added a couple of links (any errors are likely mine):
One of the things that worries me the most is that the only fish oil study lasting more than four years, which is the DART 2 trials, showed an increase in heart disease and sudden death. So of course the question is why and how could this happen?
Well, if you understand the structure of fats, fish oil is a omega 3 polyunsaturated fat, which is the most unstable and the most vulnerable to oxidative damage of any fat, even more unstable than the dreaded omega 6 polyunsaturated fat.
And what we know is that when fat particles oxidize, they break down into smaller compounds like MDA, and MDA is dangerous because it can damage proteins and DNA and other cellular structures. And in fact, studies do show that oxidative damage by compounds like MDA increases as the intake of omega 3 fat increases.
For example, one study found that 6g of fish oil per day, which is not a huge dose, but it’s more than a maintenance dose, increases lipid peroxides and MDA regardless of whether those people supplemented with vitamin E or not.
To be fair, some shorter term trials have shown a benefit, like the Gissi and DART 1 trial, found that fish oil can prevent arrhythmia in patients with chronic heart failure and a recent heart attack, but there’s really not much evidence that people other than those with chronic heart failure and arrhythmia benefit and there’s no evidence that higher doses above 1g provide a benefit over smaller doses over the long term.
It’s logical to assume that the effects of oxidative damage would take a while to manifest and actually that they would increase as time goes on, which is probably why we see a benefit in the short term studies, as omega 3 displaces omega 6 in the tissue. But then the benefit declines and even turns to harm in the longer term studies as the oxidative damage increases.
My thing with balancing the omega 6/3 ratio is to just dramatically decrease omega 6 as much as you possibly can and then eat fish 3x a week, fatty fish 6 oz, 3x a week, and maybe take some fermented cod liver oil.
If you do that, and your intake of nuts and dark meat poultry is moderate and you’re not eating any seed oil, you can have a 2/1 or 1/1 omega 6 to 3 ratio.
So I’m in favor of doing that rather than big, big doses of fish oil because of the danger of oxidative damage.
Robb: What about somebody coming in as a client, lots of systemic inflammation, pretty overweight, maybe like some depression, just kind of classic metabolic syndrome.
This is where my thought, based in part off a couple of papers, one of them is this glucose hysteresis paper which is talking about gene expression, the totality of gene expression kind of having a drift. If you imagine a big supertanker, like the Titanic, the genetic expression starts getting almost momentum or inertia to it, and in order to flip things around, sometimes you need a pretty dramatic input. And so the authors of that paper were actually talking about omega 3 as a means of righting course on that ship gone awry.
So for a long time, I was thinking generally higher intakes of omega 3s would be beneficial and then started re-evaluating that. Where I am right now is that if the individual is sick, inflamed, has some problems, do that rather large dose of fish oil to right the ship but then the rest of the dietary and lifestyle factors should fall into place such that it’s essentially what you’re describing: a low linoleic acid intake, short-chain omega 6 intake, everything else should follow into place. I think for a long time, the thought was that large amounts of omega 3s could simply counterbalance omega 6 or could undo systemic inflammation, which I think we’re pretty sure that that’s inaccurate at this point.
But what do you think about that short-term punctuated use, or would you prefer just dial down the omega 6s and tackle it that way?
Chris: That’s my preference, but I can see the logic behind that. I just want to remind people that we’re talking about the last 10% here probably. What I mean by that is I don’t think that taking high doses of fish oil for a short period of time, like a month or 6 weeks, is going to have a serious lasting negative consequence.
Robb: But you’re also not sold that it has significant benefit.
Chris: I’m not sold, I’m not sold that it doesn’t. I’ll try to keep an open mind on that. But I can just tell you that my preference in terms of working with patients is what I said. I think dramatically lowering omega 6 is going to alter the tissue ratio in a similar way.
I’ve not yet found an answer to my original question (what to do, if anything about the implications of omega 6s from breakdown of stored fat in weight loss), but to my mind, I think the idea of anything longer than a short term of high omega 3 supplementation should be approached with caution. Dr. Bill Davis is enthusiastic about omega 3 supplementation, so check him for info if you’re likewise inclined.
But like Chris, I think that you’re probably better off getting your omega 3s from food, not pills.
Update, 3/21: Robb Wolf and the folks at Whole 9 have revised their fish oil calculator. Biggest change appears to be moving away from longer-term high-dose fish oil (emphasis theirs):
So we’ve consulted with Robb Wolf to revise the recommendations, and make it outstandingly clear that we recommend you take high-dose fish oil only for a short period of time, and only while you’re making big changes to your diet and lifestyle. Once you’ve done that, you can quickly step down to a maintenance dose that will help you offset your (carefully controlled) omega-6 intake and manage any systemic inflammation that may still be present. …
After your three weeks at a higher dose, if you still have “symptoms” of inflammation (obesity, autoimmune dysfunction, chronic injury, etc.), we still want you to drop down to the maintenance dose. Fish oil is not magic, and (like many things in life) a little is good, but overdoing it is no good at all.
Update, 10/5: Robb Wolf no longer recommends high dosing fish oil:
The idea of front loading more EPA/DHA to change the fatty acid profile of our cells is great until you run into the brick-wall of our metabolic machinery. Cell fatty acid turnover cannot be “goosed” from behind like shoving a bungee jumper off a bridge. Fatty acid turnover has a rate limiting step that is not “substrate limited.” Or, in non-geek-speak more fish oil will not make the process go faster. Instead we need to limit the intake of linoleic acid, keep a decent intake of EPA/DHA, but we need not, and in fact should not hammer that dosage, as we will see when we look at oxidative stress and free-radical chemistry.
Weight Maven is written by Beth Mazur. Beth believes that obesity is more symptom than cause and that the real problem is our Western diet -- especially sugar, refined grains, and industrial oils. Beth writes about nutrition, ancestral health & food policy. And cats!
I worry about the megadoses but I’m definitely pro omega 3 both higher intake through diet (5 fish meals a week plus omega 3 eggs/hemp/walnuts/chia) and some supplementation for mood and also weight loss (or fat loss). Very interesting.
Thank you for finding the link for my question at “The Healthy skeptic”. As english is not my native language I didn’t catch the spelling.
A short year ago I got diagnosed with hashimoto’s so I’m trying to get head and tail on what’s causing the inflammation process - and what I may do to dampen it. As a lot of hashimoto’s patients also have varying degrees of gluten intolerance / grain intolerances I’ll read the article carefully - and now altso follow your blog, I think.
I’m pro altering the usual dieatary omega3/omega6 balance, but as you - I’m not sure of “how much” is the better solution.